Topic Closed
|
Flying Tigers AVG Forum
![]() FlyingTigersAVG Public
![]() Dan Ford's revised book
|
| next newest topic | next oldest topic |
| Author | Topic: Dan Ford's revised book |
|
tom pandolfi Registered User |
Would like to hear comments on Dan Ford's revised book when it is read.. "In this second edition of his 'revisionist' history masterpiece, Daniel Ford tightens up the tale, corrects a few errors, and adds dramatic new details." http://seacoastnh.com/The_Arts/Book_of_the_Week/Flying_Tigers/ Thumbs up or thumbs down??? IP: Logged |
|
Lincoln Registered User |
Well, I bought the Original, I don't think I'm gonna shell out extra for a Revision of teh Revision. Who died that he felt he could spill dirt? I think he has no shame, too bad he's given more credit than the guys who were actually there for knowing the story of what went on. IP: Logged |
|
Chuck Baisden Administrator |
quote: Not the least bit interested as I did not buy or read his 1st book. His brochure was enough for me. Chuck B. IP: Logged |
|
FrankL Administrator |
His first book was shameful, I am sure his second will be just as bad. FrankL IP: Logged |
|
BillC Registered User |
I'm sure it would be quite useful...if your lining the bottom of a hamster cage. IP: Logged |
|
tom pandolfi Registered User |
I am interested to see if he retracts any of his "findings" from his first book or finds "new" information that sheds a different light on the AVG....you all know what I mean! IP: Logged |
|
Jo Neal Administrator |
Tom, You're joking, right? Jo IP: Logged |
|
JB1956 Registered User |
Let me preface my comments by saying that I have the utmost respect for the AVG and their role in history during the early days of the Second World War. I read Ford's book and initially and for quite some time I was somewhat irritated by a revisionist look at a heroic fighting unit. I didn't understand why he would try to diminish the accomplishments of the Three Squadrons. When I thought about it another way, I think he has a lot of respect for the AVG but maybe during the heat of the battle or the Fog of War things maybe are not quite as clear. If I remember the Japanese claims of air to air victories over the Flying Tigers were extreme and could not possibly have been true, there just were'nt that many flyable aircraft. I've always wondered about Robert Neale's comments on the back of the cover " A very well-documented history of the AVG with great attention to detail." But I think also RT Smith described it as "Bull S***". IP: Logged |
|
Jo Neal Administrator |
Bob Neale admitted later that when he was asked to endorse Ford's book, he wrote that statement without ever having read any of the manuscript. He always regretted having done that, because he realized what he had said was not true about that book. Jo IP: Logged |
|
avgbob Registered User |
It's funny that you say that, Jo; I tell people about that, as I have been envolved in publishing several books, and I find that it is true with so many books, it just gets endorsed without the endorsee reading it. IP: Logged |
|
JACK COOK Registered User |
I received a early copy and am just a few chapters into it. So far the not one single negative spoken and it fact some very position remarks about Chuck B. IP: Logged |
|
Lincoln Registered User |
You're Kidding? What about Erik, any change in his writing about or mention of Erik. Erik really gave him what for on Dan Fords Forums. My interest in the Flying Tiges started young, but after reading "Claire Chenault and the American Volunteer Group" I found Dan Ford's forums on the Internet. I wouldn't have found this place had not Erik Shilling come to Dan Ford's forum to argue against the revisionism. At least from Erik I got leads to other avenues to help round out the information I was getting, so that I wasn't getting what was entirely filtered through Ford's forums. I don't think he and Erik thought fondly of each other. I would be surprised if "Cubdriver" mentioned him kindly in the book. IP: Logged |
|
Brad Smith Registered User |
I have read Dan Ford’s updated and revised edition of Flying Tigers: Claire Chennault and His American Volunteer Group, 1941-1942 (Harper Collins/Smithsonian Books, 2007) and have found it to be much improved over the original version published in 1991 and the seven subsequent printings published with corrections and additions from 1992 to 2003. I have stated in a previous post to this forum that I believed portions of Ford’s earlier editions of Flying Tigers were “unnecessarily provocative”. I found most (but not all) of that confrontational language has been removed from this revised edition. What remains is an excellent history that, in my view, will help to preserve the accomplishments of the AVG for future generations. The book not only tells the story of the AVG, but tells the story in the context of the larger war. With regard to what has probably been the most controversial part of his book -- the challenge to the number of aircraft destroyed by the AVG -- I wish there were more statements of the type, “None of these victories can be confirmed in Japanese records.” (p. 264) rather than “…for a total of six Japanese fighters supposedly destroyed that Friday morning” (p. 169) and “In truth, the 64th Sentai lost only three Hayabusas that morning…” (p. 246). Still, looking at the events in Burma and China in 1941 and 1942 from various perspectives is a valuable exercise and a much richer reading experience than looking at history from only a single perspective (usually the winner’s). I also like the way Ford’s new book is integrated into his web site (www.flyingtigersbook.com), which provides additional information for those who are interested. I can, without reservation, recommend Dan Ford’s Flying Tigers to readers of this forum. IP: Logged |
|
JACK COOK Registered User |
Dan Ford gave Erik the biggest compliment of all when he credited him with being the catalist for him learning how to fly when he was well into his 60s. I agree with Brad regarding Dan's webpage. It's full of great info and more facts and figures than any other site on the web. Just lacking in photos has are all. IP: Logged |
|
tom pandolfi Registered User |
Thanks Brad...that's all I wanted to hear....an honest opinion on this revision. IP: Logged |
|
Capt. Lou Registered User |
I will read Ford's new book and do my best to arrive at an objective opinion based on the work itself. My opinion on the first book will remain unchanged. I also do respect the reasoned views on this book written by other members of the forum. ------------------ http://www.wreckhunters.net IP: Logged |
|
JACK COOK Registered User |
Brad's review was complete, detailed, impartial and honest. How it couldn't be the final is beyond me. I don't know anyone who covers all four of those areas. I enjoyed it very much and learned a great deal. But, I'm certainly not the final word! IP: Logged |
|
JACK COOK Registered User |
Barret Tillman left a review on amazon.com which is worthy of repeating.... As a professional author, I can attest that few of us get to rewrite a book, making use of 'new' material. (There seems a law of the universe that as soon as a book hits the street, that hard-to-find bit of info finally turns up!) Fortunately for the cause of aviation history, Dan Ford is one of 'the few.' "Ford's definitive history of the AVG caused a sensation when first published, mainly because he dared challenge the conventional wisdom, not to mention the mythology attending the Flying Tigers. With passage of enough time, the worth of his initial effort became even more apparent, and even some of his critics within the AVG began acknowledging that he got far more right than wrong. "Apart from new material, the second edition retains the strengths of the first: honest scholarship and good writing. Ford clearly admires his subjects, but succeeds in telling the human side of the legendary airmen and the ground staff that 'kept 'em flying.' Claire Chennault's faults and foibles lend credence to the overall worth of this fine effort, which is unlikely ever to be surpassed." -- Barrett Tillman IP: Logged |
|
BillC Registered User |
Who is Barret Tillman, and what are his credentials to pass judgement on the AVG? I'm happy that some have found opinions that match their own, but dan ford's book can be described as nothing but a 'hit piece' on the AVG. While I'm sure there is much accurate information contained in his work, it's focus can only be described as that of diminishing the AVG and it's record in a mean spirited manner. To take the fragmentary records of the Japanese as gospel, while doubting all AVG claims seems to me, to betray an agenda that's become all too familiar in recent years. That of tearing down this country's heroes, and 're-educating' us that America just isn't as great as we believe it to be. I would be interested to know which AVG members have acknowleged dan ford's opinions. How does Mr. Tillman arrive at this conclusion? Mr. ford's book, in my opinion, is a literary version of a Jerry Springer show. One that seeks out scandal and sensationalism. I doubt that any of us would like to see our biographies characterized by the actions of our impetuous youth. dan ford's book doesn't seek to 'humanize' the AVG, it only sought to diminish them in our eyes. A disgraceful motive for a book on American veterans. In my humble opinion. [This message has been edited by BillC (edited 09-10-2007).] IP: Logged |
|
JACK COOK Registered User |
Here's your answer..... Barrett Tillman (b. 1948) is an American author who specializes in naval and aviation topics in addition to fiction and technical writing. Tillman's most influential book to date is On Yankee Station (1987), written with the late John B. Nichols. A critical appraisal of naval aviation in the Vietnam War, it was added to the US Air Force and Marine Corps professional reading lists and became a "reality check" for various Navy and Marine squadrons. R.L. Lawson, ed. History of U.S. Naval Air Power (1985) Another Country by Jeff Cooper (2005) Fiction Awards IP: Logged |
|
BillC Registered User |
Nice credentials, but I didn't see one listing referencing the AVG. So that seems to be lacking for someone characterizing the AVG story as 'mythology'. Regardless, I don't think that your constant cheerleading and promoting of dan ford's works and opinons belongs on this forum. He is much disliked by the AVG members, as they feel he has slandered them by his slanted interpretations of the facts as he constructs them. He used an invitation to an AVG reunion to try to dig for dirt for his publication and began making enemies then. I'm aware of a rather nasty e-mail you sent to a ranking member of this forum making a slanderous comment about a certain AVG pilot 'buying' victories from British fliers. That, along with your sale of AVG photos for profit does not show that you have much respect for the AVG. They seem to be more of a 'vehicle' for your own purposes and agendas. Since you are so enamored of Mr. ford, you should devote all your time to his website where I'm sure you'll be right at home and everyone will agree with you. Many of us are sick and tired of hearing about dan ford on this site. The promotion of ford is not the function of this forum. He is an irritation to most. You can post a hundred flattering comments and reviews of him, but he will never be thought of kindly by the AVG and it's supporters. Of course, I suppose we're not as 'enlightened' as those that purport to know the 'real truth'...even though they weren't there. IP: Logged |
|
tom pandolfi Registered User |
My original question and intent was to get a review of his revision leaving past/present emotions out of it. I found his first book full of good information and a reference guide even though I did not agree with everything in it. In the revision I also looked at his material and also find it a good reference guide and also get a bigger picture of the AVG and the overall war. The responses have been honest but to much past emotion and the need to attack others is very unjust and not a place on this forum. IP: Logged |
|
JACK COOK Registered User |
Hello Bill, It was my understanding that personal attacks weren't allowed of this forum. But, maybe an exception for me ya think? If you didn't want to know who Barrett Tillman was and what his credentials were you shouldn't have asked the question. Maybe you could asked him more details concerning his opinions personally. You can write to him at btillman63@hotmail.com . Has for Dan Ford I never met him and really don't think I'm promoting his work(s) being I've read exactly 1 1/2 of his books. The purpose of this thread was to seek opinions about the new edition of his book which is what I've done. I'm sorry if that's bothered you (actually I'm not sorry) but you'll get over it. Has for selling AVG photos for profit on ebay you really need to get your facts straight. First of all I do sell some pictures on ebay and some but not many are AVG. 95% are either from the National Archives or from my personal collection of originals I've worked nearly 30 years acquiring. Let's figure out the profit thing. A $4 photo minus cost of printing, listing fees, final value fees, paypal fees and the % of what's left over going to the FTA (yes Bill I said FTA!)in addition to time involved printing and mailing hasn't bought me that P-51 I've been dreaming about. Especially since I've sold maybe 4-5 AVG relately photos in the past 6 months on ebay. I think your figures are a bit off. I've shared more AVG pictures on this forum than I've ever sold on ebay my friend. Has for "a rather nasty e-mail you sent to a ranking member of this forum making a slanderous comment about a certain AVG pilot 'buying' victories from British fliers'" I not in the habit of sending 'nasty' emails or slandering anyone although I've received some woppers from forum participants & administrators in addition to being the subject of back channel emailings among members of the "FTA Family". Bill, you seem more to be more or a cheerleader and a worshiper than I could ever be so if that makes you happy so be it. If attacking me on this forum makes you feel good also then all the better. Has for my respecting the AVG, I most certainly do. Their achievements and heroism can't be denied. The FTA is not the AVG though. My advice to those out there is to read the revision of Ford's book. If you don't want to buy it, then check it out from the library. Form you own opinions rather than listening to those who haven't read it themselves. Your right to do just that is one of the benefits of living in a democracy. IP: Logged |
|
BillC Registered User |
It's obvious that you feel that ford is the final word on the AVG...I personally read the e-mail that you deny sending. It was forwarded to me by the forum member, and I still have it...If the administrators find anything they feel requires editing, they are welcome to do so. [This message has been edited by BillC (edited 09-12-2007).] IP: Logged |
|
JACK COOK Registered User |
I've traded numerous emails with the forum admistrators Bill. But, I don't believe I've slandered anyone Bill. Although my mother was compared to a prostitute by one! IP: Logged |
|
BillC Registered User |
I can not comment on your mother, nor would I care to do so. But, the person that forwarded the aforementioned e-mail has impeccable credentials. I do not doubt her in any way, shape, or form. I find it highly contradictary that you trade in the AVG legend while subscribing to a point of view that undermines that same legend. You either believe the story of the AVG...or you don't.....I would be happily described as a 'worshiper' of the AVG..,and all American combat veterans. Better that than a detractor of our veterans. The AVG volunteers subscribed to a program that was instituted by FDR to keep China in the war and further American interests. That they should be the subject of ridicule is beyond the pale. Yes, they recieved higher pay than if they stayed in the US military, but what is it worth to risk your life? They served their country's interest at a crucial time. They provided the only defense against Japanese agression. Had they not done so, China may well have been knocked out of the war, allowing hundreds of thousands of Japanese to move against allied forces, creating untold casualties. Their service can be compared to that of a high school team taking on Notre Dame...and kicking their butts. I will never be ashamed of being a 'worshiper' of the AVG...or any American veteran. [This message has been edited by BillC (edited 09-13-2007).] IP: Logged |
|
JACK COOK Registered User |
I congradualte you Bill upon finding someone with "impeciable credentials". I had no idea such a person even existed on this planet. You keep preaching about the "AVG Legend". Do you know what a legend is by definition? LEGEND: An unverified story handed down from earlier times, especially one popularly believed to be historical. I do not subscribe to any legend theory. You also seem to think that the AVG were the only ones fighting the Japanese early on in the Pacific war. You seem to forget the British, Dutch, Chinese, Philippinos, Americans, Aussies ect were all had their backs against the wall and were fighting for their lives and their country's survival. Has I earlier stated "their achievements and heroism can't be denied" but to act like the AVG did it all on their own is far from accurate. If you really want be be a worshiper go right ahead if that makes you happy. But, most vets I know would be embarassed by that. BTW Bill, I'm a 'American Veteran' with 8 years of service including OP Desert Storm. Please don't worship me. Somehow, I doubt if that will be a problem. BTW thank you Tom for the comment.... [This message has been edited by JACK COOK (edited 09-13-2007).] IP: Logged |
|
Chuck Baisden Administrator |
quote: I think it time to stop this nonsense as it changes no ones mind. Reminds me of two Missouri mules fighting over a carrot. IP: Logged |
|
BillC Registered User |
Amen, Mr. Baisden. Time to close this thread. IP: Logged |
|
worldraft Registered User |
I'm in total agrement Chuck ------------------ IP: Logged |
|
BillC Registered User |
Mr. Cook, This will be my last posting on this subject. The countries you mentioned had no function in the defense of China. You seem to change the subject to suit your needs. The AVG mission was the defense of China. Get over yourself....Has? [This message has been edited by BillC (edited 09-14-2007).] IP: Logged |
|
tom pandolfi Registered User |
ONCE AND FOR ALL....when is this going to end......Bill C??????? I posted the first question and let this be the last reply. IP: Logged |
|
Chuck Baisden Administrator |
quote: THIS IS THE END OF THIS THREAD AND ANY FURTHER INPUT WILL BE DELETED IP: Logged |
All times are CT (US) | next newest topic | next oldest topic |
![]() |
|